TNC PRIDE ARCHIVES: 2020
Interview
GLENN
CHANDLER
THE SINS OF
JACK SAUL
Jack Saul was the most notorious male prostitute in Victorian London. Born in a Dublin slum, he became embroiled in two of the major scandals of the era, and was the central character in an infamous work of pornography, The Sins of the Cities of the Plain. But it was his involvement in the Cleveland Street affair of 1889 which brought him to the attention of the public. A male brothel, telegraph messenger boys, wealthy aristocrats and the possible involvement of a member of the Royal Family were the ingredients of a scandal the Government desperately tried to suppress.
Hi Glenn thank you for talking to TNC, how are you holding up during the lockdown?
Doing a lot of writing. I have absolutely no excuse not to! Luckily where I live we are surrounded by Hertfordshire countryside, so long peaceful walks have been another order of the day. And what weather! With so few cars and hardly and planes, I’m starting to hear the birdsong in the countryside as it must have sounded about a century ago.
Is this time offering you new creative inspiration?
You bet. I’m working on a true crime story about another notorious character, but as it isn’t finished yet and I don’t want to say too much about it, except that it’s a fascinating story and set in the roaring 1920s. With a gay theme of course!
When did you first discover Jack Saul and the Cleveland Street Brothel?
Many moon ago, it seems. I first discovered him when I read one of the original Cleveland Street books published in the 80s, then got hold of the Sins of the Cities of the Plain. I still didn’t know very much about Jack when I wrote Cleveland Street The Musical for Above The Stag Theatre back in 2011, other than what was already in the public domain from published sources. No-one knew anything about him other than the fact he was a rent boy from Dublin who had a brief moment of fame (or notoriety) when he gave evidence in court against Lord Euston.
What was it about Jack Saul's story that interested you so much?
It was the challenge of tracking down a young man who had left so very few footprints in the sand. A rent boy in Dublin who slept with the aristocracy had to be a character worth knowing, but for a long time I put it off because it seemed too difficult and there were no real sources of information. Then one day I had a light bulb moment and determined to do it. I had a copy of his police statement from 1888, which he signed. I do a lot of genealogical research and family history, so I matched that with the signature of a Jack Saul in the 1901 Irish census. They were identical! From that moment on, it was a voyage of discovery, archives in Dublin and London, a trip to Galway. And I found out so much more. He was involved with the Dublin Scandals a few years before, where a lot of his associates were Dublin rent boys. They all gave affidavits and I tracked those down. I originally thought they had all been destroyed in the fire at the Four Courts during the uprising, but there were copies in the Post Office archives in London. It was thrilling to be able to put so much flesh on the bare bones of his life, and to eventually find his unmarked grave, not very far from that of Michael Collins!
You wrote Cleveland Street - The Musical, which sold out at Above the Stag Theatre, how did you go about turning the legend of Cleveland Street into a musical?
There wasn’t really any other option. I first talked the idea over with Chris Withers, who had worked with me on lighting design, and he suggested I do it. To have written a straight drama about Cleveland Street would have necessitated giving it a very ‘worthy’ feel. The telegraph boys were young, one was only fifteen, and so it was a topic a lot of people felt should be handled while holding up a mirror to the child abuse scandals of present times. I really didn’t want to do that. There was no evidence the telegraph boys were harmed in any way, they were all street-hardened lads, and they all lived to ripe old ages and drew their pensions. Male prostitution was very common among telegraph messenger boys, and the Post Office had attempted to stamp it out long before Cleveland Street. Doing it as a musical let me explore much more - the Victorian hypocrisy behind the story and the more colourful side of the characters - how the aristocratic clients of the brothel all got away while one of the boys was sent to prison. As they say, it’s the ‘rich what get the pleasure and the poor what get the blame!’
Was you surprised by the reaction you got for Cleveland Street - The Musical?
Very. i didn’t expect a sell-out. On the last night, there was a family in tears because they couldn’t get in. Somehow we managed to squeeze them into a corner! Reviews were great, though a rather sour-faced young critic (I won’t mention his name) just didn’t get it. How could you mix male prostitution with bawdy songs? A very established and well known London critic (again I won’t mention his name) accused me of making up silly names like Ernest Thickbroom, totally ignorant of the fact that was the real name of one of the telegraph boys.
For anyone interested in LGBTQ history this scandal is perhaps one of the most famous they've probably never heard of, why is the story of Cleveland Street & Jack Saul so intriguing to writers and theatre makers?
Well, all I can do is speak for myself. I was so intrigued that I went out to discover Jack Saul, wrote a book about him, and turned that into a musical too. How many people get to to write two musicals on the same slice of LGBTQ+ history? The characters were amazing for one thing. Charles Hammond, the wily brothel keeper, Madame Caroline his French wife, and the boys themselves.
Why do you think there has been such a great resurgence in interest in this period of Gay History?
It’s another time. A lot of younger people don’t even remember or want to think about when it was illegal, but it’s a past that should never be ignored. There are countries where it’s just as dangerous even now. The battle isn’t won by any means. There’s a resurgence of homophobia, and anything can happen in the future. Laws can be made, and laws can be changed. We should never get complacent. Remembering how far we have come, and how we did it, is very important.
Since premiering Cleveland Street - The Musical you wrote The Sins of Jack Saul, which is currently on its Second Edition, had you always intended to return to Jack Saul's story?
As I said earlier, he sat in the back of my mind for a long time. I think it was inevitable I was going to return to him. I remember the moment I ‘found’ him by comparing the signatures, I really did shout “Eureka!” Yes, looking back, I did want to be the person to find him. If it hadn’t been for the fact I researched my own Chandler family history back to 1577 in the New Forest, I would never have learned about the tools with which to do it. Genealogical research can be obsessive and can take over your life. I know!
Can you tell me a little bit about how The Sins of Jack Saul came about?
After I had written the book, a publisher who was also a friend took a great interest. He was only a small publisher but he said he would do it. Then suddenly he changed his mind. I got a three page email from him, suggesting I fictionalise some of the story. No-one, he said, wants to read about what’s in this document and that document. And worse, he didn’t think any reader would be interested in as low-life a character as Jack. I was pretty devastated. I’m not sure why he turned against the book so violently. I determined that same day to publish it myself, which nowadays with print-on-demand is much easier than it used to be. A company called Grosvenor House Publishing were marvellous. They did everything for me except the marketing, which I did myself, though it took only a few posts on Twitter and Facebook before Amazon had an order for over a hundred copies. I wrote the second edition after I discovered the Dublin Scandals file in the Post Office archives - there was too much great stuff in that not to use. Since then, the book has sold around the world. I met up with the publisher who had turned it down recently. He said that it wouldn’t have done half as well if I’d gone with him!
In writing this book what new things about Jack had you been able to discover?
Since writing the second edition, I’ve gone on to other things, but I do have contacts around the world who occasionally message me with bits of information. I now have a picture of him! Actually, it’s a picture of a papier-mâché bust that was made of him in 1889, the year of the scandal. It was found in Paris. He looks very effeminate and has big lips, as though he’d had a botox job. I’m not surprised that in 1889, the judge referred to the man in the dock as a “creature”.
How widespread was male prostitution in Victoria London?
Pretty widespread, as was female prostitution, though men were driven to it less by desperation than by opportunity. It’s a whole subject on its own.
"I like to hope that my book will enable people to follow him from the cradle to grave, and maybe even visit his unmarked grave in Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin."
What have been the biggest challenges you faced writing The Sins of Jack Saul?
Coming back down to earth afterwards, I think. For a long time I missed him. I thought, I really have found out everything. Move on.
And finally, what do you hope people will take away from The Sins of Jack Saul?
The story of a young man who defied Victorian society and who was ultimately a survivor. He was a wicked lad, I’m quite sure. He broke every taboo. Had a lover who was a Protestant soldier while he himself was a Catholic brought up in the slums of Dublin. I like to hope that my book will enable people to follow him from the cradle to grave, and maybe even visit his unmarked grave in Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin. It’s not hard to find, the office has the maps and records. One fan in America wants to put a stone or a marker on the grave, but unfortunately only a member of the family can do that. I know of one, but regrettably she lost contact - I don’t think she was really that keen on me writing about Jack, but she was very helpful.